Originally by: Jade Constantine

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Regardless of the toothless grinding of old failed Amarrian loyalists in this thread the message of our intentions, methodology and measures of success or failure are all clearly indicated in the op. We are here to help our friends and comrades and put regressive nationalists to the sword. All else is irrelevant detail.

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Originally by: The Cosmopolite

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Originally by: Rodj Blake

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In other words, no matter how things go you'll still claim victory.

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No. We leave that sort of thing to people who squat in churches raving 'Amarr Victor' when they are outclassed in every way.

As Jade Constantine has said, the objective is clear enough from the announcement post.

The Cosmopolite

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Originally by: The Cosmopolite

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Star Fraction explicitly places this campaign in the context of the Amarr-Minmatar conflict and will judge our effectiveness by developments in that conflict, where we can fairly be said to have played a role, which are contrary to the interests of the Amarrian Empire, the 24th Imperial Crusade and loyalist capsuleers taking part in the conflict. The normal and accepted means of judging the course of the militia conflicts include the occupation status of systems and accumulated battle statistics, and we shall give these their due weight in making our assessments.

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Originally by: The Cosmopolite

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This is a different campaign with different objectives. It would be artificial to rely on metrics not precisely relevant to our particular goals.

Speaking personally, I view our Minmatar allies as the proper judges of whether or not we are successful in this effort.

The Cosmopolite

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Originally by: The Cosmopolite

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We're anarchists. We're opposed to government on principle. Why would we affiliate to government militias?

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Originally by: The Cosmopolite

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Please don't mix up 'affiliate' and 'ally', Blake, and also note that we are allied to capsuleer-controlled corporations in some of the militias, not any militia as a whole.

As to the reason for our alliances with various corporations and entities, quite simple: commonality of interest to a degree meriting the alliances being entered into.

Which is largely why everyone allies with other people. I would have thought this is elementary.

The Cosmopolite

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Originally by: The Cosmopolite

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Originally by: Rodj Blake

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So as someone who is "opposed to government on principle," you see no issue with allying with supporters of a government?

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Against a common enemy when it is the greater threat? No. Particularly, though not necessarily, when it is an alliance with supporters of a government we believe we can oppose without violence.

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Originally by: The Cosmopolite

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Nevertheless, we will work with capsuleers of many political persuasions we don't necessarily agree with against common foes, or toward any other ends in our common interest, where there is a basis for trust. This is simply basic common sense.

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Originally by: The Cosmopolite

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Originally by: Rodj Blake

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Originally by: The Cosmopolite

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Nevertheless, we will work with capsuleers of many political persuasions we don't necessarily agree with against common foes, or toward any other ends in our common interest, where there is a basis for trust. This is simply basic common sense.

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It's interesting that you should say that, because I recall what SF said when a certain Gallente nationalist made a throwaway remark about favouring PIE over SF.

I guess it's different when SF do it

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Oh, not at all. Not by any means.

If said Gallente nationalist wants to favour PIE over the Star Fraction because his interests lie in the Star Fraction being defeated by a slaver corporation while it fights slavery then that's quite understandable and clear.

Ultimately, if a Gallente nationalist has a commonality of interest and basis for trust with an Amarr paramilitary organisation then I would expect them to ally with one another. It isn't the fact of them being allied that I would would cavil at in any way. Rather, I would reflect on why they should be allied or favour one another.

The Cosmopolite

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Originally by: The Cosmopolite

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Originally by: Rodj Blake

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Obviously they shouldn't ally with each other unless they want to become hypocrites, just as SF shouldn't ally with their ideological opposites unless they want to become hypocrites. That's my point.

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Oh, I understood what you were driving at right enough. I just don't agree that it is hypocrisy of any kind to act in the pursuit of one's stated interests in common with others that, in a particular regard, share those interests. The claim that it is amounts to spouting an illiterate slur. It is actually the literal opposite of hypocrisy.

But on your analysis, when say, the Amarr Empire and the Caldari State ally with one another, having ideologies that are, at root, in opposition, isn't that hypocrisy?

Please, do not tell me that the Amarr Reclaiming and religiously-mandated (or rather excused) slavery are doctrines compatible with the Caldari ideologies of national independence and individual freedom. Do not render yourself that ludicrous.

The Cosmopolite

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Originally by: The Cosmopolite

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Edited by: The Cosmopolite on 12/08/2010 13:53:43

Originally by: The Cosmopolite

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Originally by: Rodj Blake

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Please, do not tell me that the Amarr Reclaiming and religiously-mandated (or rather excused) slavery are doctrines compatible with the Caldari ideologies of national independence and individual freedom. Do not render yourself that ludicrous.

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I hardly think that the workers in Caldari factories have a greater sense of individual freedom than the average Ni-kunni tradesman.

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Oh, please, do you think shifting your ground in that blatant manner will convince anyone? Moving from the ideology of the Caldari to consequences of the fact that their State, indeed, is a hypocrisy on stilts run by gangsters that have no desire to follow through the implications of a potentially libertarian philosophy to its logical conclusions? You really think that is an answer?

Very well then. We can leave it there if you're satisfied with that.

The Cosmopolite

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Originally by: The Cosmopolite

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Originally by: Rodj Blake

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One minute you're saying that the State is haven of national independence and individual freedom, and the next you're saying that it's a hypocrisy on stilts run by gangsters.

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I did not at any point claim the Caldari State was a 'haven' of individual freedom. On the other hand, I do think that, despite the hypocrisies of the State's rulers when it comes to individual liberties, it is fairly clear that they see the doctrine of national independence as useful and in their own, rather baleful way tend to act on that ideology.

I have made no 'u-turn' while you are trying to evade the logical implications of your own claim that it is hypocrisy for those holding opposing ideologies to ever ally with one another regardless of situations where their interests may converge.

The Cosmopolite

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Originally by: Jade Constantine

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We are mocking you with a Fraction tower in Huola while you spin ships.

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Originally by: Jade Constantine

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shifty K/D ratio mathematics

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Originally by: Jade Constantine

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You are simply a forum troll.

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Originally by: Jade Constantine

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But as a cowardly posting-proxy for one of our enemies

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Originally by: Jade Constantine

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Originally by: Archbishop

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Oh yes Jade... your war diaries are so accurate and impartial...

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They are entirely accurate and can be cross-referenced directly with the public kill database.

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Quote:

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And do stop your officer's using the "lucifers widow" identity.

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Originally by: Jade Constantine

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Originally by: Rodj Blake

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That's a change of tone from just a couple of days ago when you were complaining about loyalists "utilizing shifty K/D ratio mathematics." Apparently it's different when it's SF listing what they've killed and lost though!

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The only difference is we don't lie about it.

You do.

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Originally by: Jade Constantine

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To our enemies - please stop posting with cloaked identities and random proxies. It simply devalues the climate of the summit for all concerned.

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